Edited by Lasha Darkmoon
In which it is argued that ALL punishment—including capital punishment—has to be wrong in a dystopian society. When there is no confidence in the government’s fairness or in the integrity of the police, all punishments become acts of petty vengeance.
WHAT JUSTICE IN DYSTOPIA?
NEW SONG : We are living in anarchy; no Justice; no Law; no Order; Order replaced by slavery.
HARBINGER : New Song, why do you believe that we are living in an anarchy? We are living within the pages of Orwell’s Nineteen Eighty-Four and Huxley’s Brave New World Revisited. This cryptocracy we live in is the polar opposite of an anarchy! Anarchy in its most basic form is translated as “without rule or rulers”. A country without any proper government: that’s an anarchy.
The state is authoritarian. Here in Scotland they are arresting anyone who speaks out against immigrants. In an anarchy there would be no police to arrest anyone, nor would there be judiciaries to steal from the people and imprison them. We are living under a new feudal system. Here the bankers and the wealthy landowners are the “kings”. They are ABOVE any law they make for the rest of us.
In a true anarchy, this would not be the case, for no central authority would exist to lay down the law.
I wish people would stop throwing out the word “anarchy” to describe the socialist dystopia we live in today. It’s really quite pathetic, to say the least.
POUPON MARX : Ms. Darkmoon, what is your position on flogging and the guillotine, publicly administered, for these offenses contra children?
LD : I could go on about this subject forever, but I must resist that temptation!
Broadly speaking, I am all for the reintroduction of corporal and capital punishment under strictly regulated conditions. By which I mean, great care must be taken to ensure that only the guilty, not the innocent, are punished in this way. The punishment must not only be proportionate to the crime but administered without cruelty. Finally, the punishment must work by acting as an effective deterrent.
Take corporal punishment. My own ancestors, that is the male ones, were soundly thrashed at school. It did them no harm whatsoever. It did not make them grow up with a perverted love for caning. “Spare the rod and spoil the child” is a Biblical injunction with which I have no problem. I am all for robust physical punishment for antisocial thugs, provided of course the person who wields the whip is not corrupted by developing a taste for sadism.
As for capital punishment, this is far harder to legislate over. Why? Because many people suffering from depression and terminal diseases who long for euthanasia might then be tempted to commit murder in the knowledge that the State would then dispose of them painlessly. The existence of capital punishment, in other words, might become an incentive for murder.
There are many serial killers in prison right now who would give their souls if they could be euthanized, e.g., the Moors Murderer Ian Brady who is on prolonged hunger strike and is forcibly fed by a tube thrust up his nose and down his throat. All he wants is to die, but the State won’t let him die peacefully. Keeping him alive is their act of vengeance. Bear this in mind.
Capital punishment can be abused by the State. After the Nuremberg trials, the Germans who were pronounced guilty were hanged by the American and Brits in a very cruel manner. The hangman was given instructions to bungle each hanging, making sure that each German on the scaffold suffered excruciating torture while suffocating to death slowly.
I am all for humane punishment provided those who administer it know what they are doing.
HARBINGER : Lasha, these are your words:
“Broadly speaking, I am all for the reintroduction of corporal and capital punishment under strictly regulated conditions. By which I mean, great care must be taken to ensure that only the guilty, not the innocent, are punished in this way.”
And what of the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four? What happens when they introduce the death penalty for denying the Holocaust and/or speaking out against Zionism, as they did in Russia?
The minute you introduce the death penalty into society, you walk a very slippery slope. And worse, in our present system, where other than whacking whistle blowers and people who know too much (classic case of eyewitnesses on 9/11, many of who are now dead), it’s just a case of planting DNA evidence at a scene of a crime and voila, court case followed by black hat and a rope to hang on. Our elites would want nothing more than to bring back execution. They’d get rid of all the political dissenters and conspiracy theorists, on trumped up charges of paedophilia and murder.
I am utterly opposed to the death sentence given out by any state, because it just turns into a means of control. And worse, a tool of fear. To whack those who attack the state.
As for corporal punishment, again I disagree. Both corporal and capital punishment are no good in my opinion. It’s physical assault!
POUPON MARX : LD, thank you for your quick response. It is refreshing to receive opinions of a person with higher mental abilities who still manages to keep connected to the concrete and empirical world of Nature, which is God’s Infinite Machine that obeys rules and laws.
I ignore the comments following yours as incomplete, emotional, virtue signaling, and trite, quite honestly.
I have had the good fortune (it was my fate) to have traveled the world several times over and have spent considerable time in Asian countries. They are presently superior to the West, and have probably always have been, for a much longer time as civilized, refined societies, and have the kernel of regeneration that we occidentals seem to not possess. Or if so, in ever decreasing quantities. Frankly, I stand in awe of the high IQ Eastern Asian countries and its people. And how’s this: I prefer their company in most personal and impersonal interactions.
My point in the preceding is that such advanced societies with cohesive values-like strong glue!- have a definite set of ideas regarding criminal justice and retribution. You see, Asians do not deny, nor deflect either their desire or the value of retribution and revenge. To do so, is unnatural and in fact degrades and denigrates the value of those lost or mortally injured. It’s the scales, the equation, the balance that restores harmony to life and those wronged. Harmony and Wa.
Hence, with the exception of Japan (unnaturally so due to the long American occupation) all Asian countries prescribe the death penalty for possessing relatively small amounts of drugs, selling, murder, and in some cases attempted murder. I raise my glass in toast with bonhomie.
Singapore canes miscreants. Flogging needs a reference for those who reflexively get the vapors:
Caning is immediate stimuli, breaks down internal mental and cognitive compartmentalization, and releases the brain chemicals that expedite empathy and sympathy in the perpetrator for his victim. “See how it feels?”
Take the run of the mill bar fighter, speeder, drunk drive, wife beater, petty criminals, etc. Do you not feel that there would be less recidivism given a good trashing rather than a confinement shooting hoops, pumping iron, and burning through hard earned tax payer money? Wouldn’t you really in your most unguarded, non-collectivized rational mind think that the third major felony deserves the send off to the Next World? Hold! Stop that reflex! Be honest with yourself!
I don’t follow long winding gerbil bore holes of internal logic, convoluted circular logic, stacked logical fallacies and silly pollyanna hope for reciprocity from psychopaths, malignant narcissists, and just bad people with bad brain wiring. No. I am an engineer, whose acid test and pass criteria is simple: Does it work? If not, start again, revise it, or scrap it!
HARBINGER : (to Poupon Marx) : You say, “I ignore the comments following yours as incomplete, emotional, virtue signaling, and trite, quite honestly.”
So that’ll be myself and lobro then?
Would you care to elaborate, on say, the moral aspects of murdering another human? Is this not a ‘Christian’ website? Is one of the ten commandments not ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill’? And the innocents, those set up by corrupt politicians, who are then murdered by the state and painted into demons by the msm; what of them? Didn’t Christ tell his companions to desist from physical violence when they came for him in the garden of Gethsemane? Shouldn’t people lead by his example?
There is NO argument for the killing of ANY human being on this planet — killing by the state!
If you truly do believe that there is, then I hate to say it bub, you’ve just lost all moral high ground! You’ve become no different to those whom you wish to murder!
An emotional argument? There is no emotion in this argument whatsoever. Quite the contrary! The killing of another by the state is an emotional act of revenge, is it not?
And just to finish off, when it comes to physical abuse over another, no different to corporal punishment; a young friend of mine was abused by his father all of his life, not sexually, just beaten about. His sister saw the abuse her father gave to her mother as well as herself. Both are now aggressive individuals, both have been in and out of prison and don’t think twice about lashing out at others. In a word, they are ‘screwed’ in the head, because of physical (corporal) abuse over them.
I’m shocked that anyone would be an advocate for capital and corporal punishment. And I laugh out loud when they say idiotic things like “We just have to make sure that innocent people are not killed”.
It’s the innocents who always suffer in societies with capital punishment.
PAT (to Lasha and Harbinger) : There have been way too many people on ‘death row’ for decades, found to have been wrongly convicted…. even set-up by the police and judges and authorities, but set free as new evidence and DNA proved they were not guilty at all.
(See how Edgar Steele was railroaded by the system. He actually got a death sentence by torture in prison, just for speaking out.)
When one innocent person is wrongly put to death, the system is flawed and should be rejected.
Capital punishment is flawed. It should not have any place in a society ruled by arrogant lying men and women…. by “politicians”.
Prosecutors and judges are politicians. Politicians are incapable of unbiased thoughts, words or deeds. They thrive on corruption. They are basically corrupt.
LD : I absolutely agree that capital punishment is wrong when is is misapplied. Innocent people must on no account be put to death by corrupt politicians. But when the DNA evidence is beyond criticism, and the culprit actually admits his guilt, and when a sworn jury unanimously decides that the criminal deserves death, surely capital punishment in circumstances like these ought not to be ruled out. Each sovereign country must decide for itself how to treat its criminals without instructions from America on how to behave. America, with its dreadful record of torture and violent warmongering, is in no position to give the world lectures on morality.
HARBINGER : Lasha,
Firstly, thanks for ignoring me on this thread.
Secondly, shocked, beyond all belief that one who purports to be a Christian, should wish to break one of the commandments!
And as for this comment of yours: “But when the DNA evidence is beyond criticism…”
And DNA evidence can’t be planted at the scene of the crime? Sperm can’t be taken from a suspect and implanted into a woman, by corrupt police? Fingerprints can’t easily be put on certain objects in a murder scene?
“…and when a sworn jury unanimously decides that the criminal deserves death”
And Juries can’t be bought?
There is NO argument for capital punishment in ANY civilized society!
(later, to Toby) I am frankly amazed that you can state “BEYOND CRITICISM” when it comes to DNA evidence. As I stated above, it’s simple to insert sperm from the accused into a dead woman’s body, along with pubic hair, to place the guilt on an innocent man. It’s incredibly easy to drop a few strands of hair in an apartment, skin under fingernails, fingerprints on objects, to falsify evidence.
What of the 9/11 hijackers, who weren’t even there? What of the 7/7 terrorist suspects, murdered by the police, so as not to give their side of the story?
Everything that I have stated is to prove that DNA evidence can easily be planted, witnesses fabricated, juries and judges bought and of course suspects tortured and, even worse, murdered, to paint whatever picture the status quo wants to IN A COURT OF LAW.
(later, to Toby, after his resignation) : Toby,
Regardless of our disagreement on this thread, you’ve been a good and fair moderator, as well as commenter and I’m sure many will miss you.
PAT : Ditto here. One last smiley for Toby.. ?
TOBY : Harbinger,
Thanks you for these kind words. They mean a lot to me. Both Lasha and I would like to see you go on posting on this site. This is because it is one of the few places where you will be able to speak your mind freely without too much censorship. I spoke to Lasha yesterday about your recent posts which I thought could have been more moderately expressed and asked her if she had been offended by their tone. He answer surprised me. “Not in the least,” she smiled. “Under his rough exterior, Harbie is a gentleman! I’ve exchanged quite a few emails with him and we get on just fine! Never a cross word!”
She went on to surprise me even further by doing what seemed to me to be a complete U-turn on capital punishment, saying that the viewpoint you and Pat had expressed on this subject was “undoubtedly the correct one in the dystopian world in which we live.” I didn’t understand at first how she could reconcile this with her own previously expressed views in support of capital punishment. She explained.
These are not her exact words, but they went something like this:
“Listen, let’s begin with voting. I don’t vote on principle, nor does Pat. Why? Because we live in a pseudo-democracy where votes can be rigged and where the choice of candidates is a complete farce. We don’t vote because we don’t want to participate in the dismal process and legitimize the undesirable candidate who is going to win — either Trump or Hillary, in the case of America.”
“So?” I asked. “what has this got to do with capital punishment?”
“A lot,” she said. “If you despise a nation’s government so much that you refuse to even vote, why should you accept that its legal system is fair, that its judges are fair, that the sentences they dish out in their courts are fair? As Harbie has correctly pointed out, the police can fake DNA evidence, they can plant evidence, they can bribe witnesses. Added to which, why trust the jury system? If you’re a guy like Lobro, on trial for Holocaust denial, how would Lobro feel if he were to find himself facing a jury in which there were three Jews who hated everything he stood for? With the rest of the jury consisting of morons who actually believed that Jews had been turned into lampshades during WWII?”
“Good point,” I said. “So the legal system sucks. And you don’t trust the judges, the jury, the courts, the witnesses, and above all, you don’t trust the police to come up with untainted evidence.”
“Precisely. It follows logically from this that capital punishment is totally unfair when it’s dished out by people you don’t trust one inch. To be fair, capital punishment must be dispensed by people in whom you have complete confidence.”
She went on to explain that her previous defense of capital punishment had been based on the flawed premise that we lived in a utopian world in which the authorities could be trusted, in which all judges were as wise as Solomon, and in which the police were all squeaky-clean paragons of virtue. 🙂
In other words, Harbinger, you have done us all a big favour by saying what you said in the forceful way you did. Because ultimately you are correct. In a world where the government sucks, no punishment handed out by the authorities can be seen as fair. This applies even to prison sentences. In America, Lasha tells me, they put people in prison because the prisons have been privatised and it’s profitable to cram in as many prisoners as they can round up. Prison is big business.
Conclusion: Lasha would like you to continue commenting on our site because at least you have the guts to say what you believe in and not mince your words. Sincerity and passion are not to be despised!
LD : We have built a dystopian world. There’s no doubt about it. As Yeats said prophetically, “Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold.” In a dystopian police state, where the government has acquired all the traits of a superbully, the government has lost the confidence of its citizens and forfeited the right to dispense punishments of any kind — including capital punishment. When a state is widely perceived as an Orwellian tyranny of this kind, it no longer become possible to respect its diktats on anything.